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#154319 - 08/18/11 05:10 PM Re: All About Rev Rate ***** [Re: CoachJim]
Vini Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 11/02/09
Posts: 406
A/S/L: 32/m/Al
Originally Posted By: CoachJim
Let me know if you are ever in the Washington DC area, I will hook you up.


Sure will do Coach !
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#10100 - 1 second ago Sponsored Links
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Legend

Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
A/S/L: Mountain View, CA
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#167324 - 05/28/12 08:01 AM Re: All About Rev Rate [Re: KahKiat]
NaSTI Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 05/20/12
Posts: 216
A/S/L: 33/M/Renton WA
So is this the correct order?
1. Wrist cocked, cupped
2. Wrist uncocks
3. Wrist uncups
4. Top slap
5. Fingers follow through the ball.

Now at which point in your swing do you start to uncock? Just before the ball reaches the heel of your slide foot? I wear a Pro-Release and its set to a cupped position. I would be unable to uncup during my release. I can still uncock tho but is there an alternative for me to release with still a cocked, cupped wrist? Or uncocked, cupped release?
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#167330 - 05/28/12 09:49 AM Re: All About Rev Rate [Re: KahKiat]
Dennis Michael Offline
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Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9820
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
At the bottom of your swing, you uncock, your thumb comes out, and the ball rests on your fingers. then, with a forward motion of your wrist, you recup and the fingers propel the ball forward. The hand comes up to the desired release angle and the fingers impart rotation on the ball.

To do this correctly, your hand has to remain behind the ball and your fingers under the equator of the ball.
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#167331 - 05/28/12 10:06 AM Re: All About Rev Rate [Re: KahKiat]
10PinGaloot Offline
Legend

Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 2094
A/S/L: 65/m/ Woodburn, OR
I'm so glad Dennis chimed in, as this shot is the best kept open secret of the pros. You see tons of them doing it, but it's rarely described properly. In this post, I'll be describing my version of it. Others might see it differently...


For me, it's hard to both cock and cup, because there isn't much time to unwind both. The top slap is as Dennis described, although I don't recup the wrist, but rather bend the fingers at the knuckles. If I do recup, it's not a conscious effort; it happens so fast....

For myself, I don't even cup or cock, as the top slap gives me plenty of action. If I were to choose, I would cup/uncup, just as a personal preference. I lose consistency when I do the cock/uncock. Although that's very popular, I just can't do it well.

When I do cup. I do it at the top of my backswing, at the 0 gravity point. It's so much easier, requiring no muscular effort at that point. On the forward downswing, though, it takes a little muscle to maintain the cup until the bottom of the swing. Bowlers with a wrist brace will maintain the cup all the way through the release, and that's fine, but if you do that, you can't top slap. You'll be coming around the side of the ball instead of over the top of the ball. To do the slap shot, you will want to time the uncupping so that it coincides with the vertical bottom of your swing.

I'll cup/uncup more often when using a 90* axis rotation, because it's easier to do with the higher degrees. That brings to mind another point. The motion of the hand around the ball to the starting point for the axis degrees can be done slowly in the bottom half of the backswing, or it can be done during the actual uncupping motion, if you're doing cup/uncup. If done during the release just prior to the slap, then it will add some tilt. If done prior to the release, so that the hand is not rotating during the release, then you'll get 0* tilt. Cock/uncock will also give you tilt for the same reason.

So when I cup, that's the wrist. When I top slap, that's the first and second knuckles of the fingers. that gives my brain a chance to do two things in rapid succession. I think the wrist follows along because the ball's rotation pulls it in that direction (it pulls my arm as well, for that matter).

Probably the weirdest thing about this release is that it doesn't change the motion (speed or trajectory) of the ball at all. My arm is swinging towards the target and my fingers are slapping towards the left side. Consequently the hand/arm are not propelling the ball forward - it's already been set in motion by the swing. Rather the hand is spinning the ball in mid-air as the ball moves forward. This is in controversion (?) to Norm Duke's video suggesting that you accelerate through the bottom of the swing, or drive through the ball at the point of release. Does that make it controversial? Just kidding. I know lots of folks like to drive through the shot, but how can your hand be vertically above the ball and do that? It would seem that that would be a different shot, not the top slap.

An alternative to the top slap, for 0 to 10 degrees axis rotation, would be a slap up the back. Same motion, but you come up the back of the ball. Some might say that's hitting up, but what can I say? It works for me. As with the top slap, you do not want to change the forward motion of the ball when doing a slap up the back. Also, you don't want to lift the ball, but rather spin it. If you find that you're lofting when slapping the back, then you're not finessing the slap enough. This shot is useful mainly for those times when you need to go straight with enhanced forward roll, such as playing the outside line.

PS - As I've noted many times, this is just one shot in my repertoire. A good low rev release comes in handy sometimes, and I am not going to quit trying the waggle (my name for cock/uncock) until I get it right.

PPS - I don't adjust. I choose a place to stand and a target at the arrows and a release and try to make it work. Sometimes frustrating when I am losing to my wife and refuse to go to a proven release, but how else do you learn? A toddler falls many times before he learns to walk.

PPPS - shot 50 points above average for 2 games in a row using this shot yesterday (first one was slap up the back, second game was top slap). Hoping that becomes permanent....

PPPPS - can you tell this is my favorite subject? I spent 49 minutes on this one post.



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#167335 - 05/28/12 01:46 PM Re: All About Rev Rate [Re: 10PinGaloot]
metguy Offline
Legend

Registered: 03/12/11
Posts: 1108
A/S/L: 46/m/waverly iowa
Originally Posted By: 10PinGaloot

When I do cup. I do it at the top of my backswing, at the 0 gravity point. It's so much easier, requiring no muscular effort at that point. On the forward downswing, though, it takes a little muscle to maintain the cup until the bottom of the swing.



I know zero gravity is zero but is this any harder if your timing is a little late or early? For those who have timing issues, and struggling to execute this, is it absolutely essential that the timing be pretty spot on?
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#167340 - 05/28/12 07:26 PM Re: All About Rev Rate [Re: KahKiat]
10PinGaloot Offline
Legend

Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 2094
A/S/L: 65/m/ Woodburn, OR
I've gone through 8 years of trying out various releases. I would say this is not a beginner's shot. The grip has to be perfect, and it has to be tighter for this shot than, say, a stroker.

I haven't noticed a timing issue with the cupping. I have no idea if my timing is early or late. It just seems to happen. Actually, my feet seem to somehow be on a different controller than my arm. I have a long slide. Maybe that helps to even out the timing some.

I can see how late timing would tug on the ball to start coming down. Maybe I don't have late timing.

What I have noticed is that the uncupping has to be timed right. I haven't accomplished that too well with other than very high axis rotation. I'm thinking that for 0-45* axis rotation with the cup/uncup, a forward pitch might be necessary to keep the ball on the hand until the right point in the swing.
I'm not going to try that, though, since the non-cupped release works well enough for me at this point in my learning curve.

The slap itself has to be timed precisely, or you'll end up hitting 3-6 instead of 1-3.
_________________________
"If it ain't workin', you're either throwing the ball wrong or throwing the wrong ball."
"Follow the oil!"
"Dry lanes ain't worth a shot!"
"I love the smell of lane conditioner in the morning!"
current avatar is Gabby Hayes. Looks a lot like me! smile


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#167341 - 05/29/12 01:10 AM Re: All About Rev Rate [Re: NaSTI]
B-Hammer Offline
Legend

Registered: 04/19/09
Posts: 1818
A/S/L: 30/M/Bellingham WA
Originally Posted By: NaSTI
So is this the correct order?
1. Wrist cocked, cupped
2. Wrist uncocks
3. Wrist uncups
4. Top slap
5. Fingers follow through the ball.
Now at which point in your swing do you start to uncock? Just before the ball reaches the heel of your slide foot? I wear a Pro-Release and its set to a cupped position. I would be unable to uncup during my release. I can still uncock tho but is there an alternative for me to release with still a cocked, cupped wrist? Or uncocked, cupped release?




Answers a lot of your questions.

One thing to note, it's hard to apply a lot of the "modern release" techniques with the gadget style brace on. Like you said you can't cup and un-cup. You can still do a scroggins style of release which is still a good one, it's just going to be real hard to do a Barnes style of release with it on.

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#167345 - 05/29/12 04:15 AM Re: All About Rev Rate [Re: KahKiat]
NaSTI Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 05/20/12
Posts: 216
A/S/L: 33/M/Renton WA
Ooh pls describe the Mike Scroggins release B.
_________________________
My arsenal - Brunswick Mastermind, Storm Natural Pearl, Storm Reign of Power, Track MX10 and Track 505C2 High game - 300 High Series - 814
Avg. 2teens
08 Subaru STI 397whp/430wtq @ 20psi...hence the screen name

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#167351 - 05/29/12 01:34 PM Re: All About Rev Rate [Re: metguy]
VFF57 Offline
Legend

Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 1643
A/S/L: 50's/M/NJ
Quote:
I know zero gravity is zero but is this any harder if your timing is a little late or early? For those who have timing issues, and struggling to execute this, is it absolutely essential that the timing be pretty spot on?


Early timing can be a rev killer. The ball comes off the hand before good leverage or any of what was discussed here can be established. Spot on or even slightly late is needed because I think the foundation to good revs is the leverage/set-up time.

I've been struggling with sporadic early timing this past year. Nothing worse than having a ball come off your hand with nothing on it with the result being a flat hit. When my timing is slightly late which I prefer, I'm usually releasing the ball with some revs on it.
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#167364 - 05/30/12 05:24 AM Re: All About Rev Rate [Re: KahKiat]
Vini Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 11/02/09
Posts: 406
A/S/L: 32/m/Al
A tip that has worked for me:

In practice, just before releasing the ball I always look at my hand. There is a huge difference between what you "feel" you hand is doing and what is actually doing.
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