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#138619 - 11/05/10 01:31 PM Re: Same Models, Different Specs [Re: J_w73]
aoiten Offline
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Registered: 03/03/10
Posts: 1415
A/S/L: amerika ni sunde iru
Originally Posted By: J_w73

Both of those balls are fairly weak covers and will need some friction for them to move..They are not going to hook that much if there is any decent amount of oil..


Right. That's what my son experiences. He says he likes the way the ball is hooking now; it just doesn't carry enough. It seems that he needs a stronger, solid(?) coverstock along with the extra pound.

My original question was about the idea that the same ball with higher weight and slightly different RG/Diff values might behave noticeably different. Based on feedback though, weights under 13-14 pounds are mostly about coverstock. So now I have to figure out which coverstocks are strong without significant influence from a core, and have reasonable price tags.

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#138640 - 11/05/10 10:30 PM Re: Same Models, Different Specs [Re: aoiten]
Taylor S. Offline
Regional Pro Contender

Registered: 04/20/09
Posts: 561
A/S/L: 19/M/ Williamsport, PA
i know im a little late.. but wouldnt a heavier ball create more friction on the lane because its heavier? with more friction it could slow the ball down a little bit and hook just a little bit more?
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#138642 - 11/06/10 12:37 AM Re: Same Models, Different Specs [Re: Taylor S.]
aoiten Offline
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Registered: 03/03/10
Posts: 1415
A/S/L: amerika ni sunde iru
Originally Posted By: Taylor S.
i know im a little late.. but wouldnt a heavier ball create more friction on the lane because its heavier? with more friction it could slow the ball down a little bit and hook just a little bit more?


Ah, that's an interesting thought. Like pressing sandpaper more firmly against whatever you're sanding, yeah?

One good thing about the lower weight is that my son naturally developed sensitivity to speed. He knows to slow the ball down for more reaction, but then he loses some power.

Today my son was rolling some nice hooks, even after the oiling machine came by. He likes the 2000 Abralon finish and actually proposed getting the same ball in a higher weight with the same finish. Since he owns that idea now, it should go over well with him. heh

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#138730 - 11/07/10 06:04 PM Re: Same Models, Different Specs [Re: aoiten]
trekguy Offline
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Registered: 11/28/08
Posts: 783
A/S/L: 56/M/Mn
Originally Posted By: aoiten
Originally Posted By: trekguy
Increased weight will carry a little better. You should always go as heavy as you can handle.

How old is your son? How big?


My son is 11.5 y/o. Twelve pounds would be his upper limit right now. He seems to be getting over the desire to have a dramatic hook and he can hit the pocket nice. However, the 11# hybrid, even at 2000 Abralon, deflects too much and leaves one pin too often.


An 11 pound ball is going to deflect... it's just too light in comparison to the pins. Hmm... at 11.5 y/o.I would think it's more important to work on basic fundamentals like timing, balance, and proper hand position and release than tweaking ball covers etc. The worst thing that can happen to a kid who's trying to learn the game, is to throw a ball that hooks too much... it develops a lazy release, and bad inside/out habits. Better to go with a tamer ball, and make it work. imo grin
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#138731 - 11/07/10 06:27 PM Re: Same Models, Different Specs [Re: aoiten]
Norm3v Offline
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Registered: 06/28/10
Posts: 270
A/S/L: 34 M NJ US
Aoiten, a while back we talked about my wife having 12 lb Tropical Heat Hybrid and that she was going back to her 14 lb redrilled Virtual Energy. Well, she was averaging about 105 when she made the move and is now averaging 130 in a matter of 2 months. Granted, her form is much better now and she's really "getting it" with adjusting and what not, but the ball has had a huge imnpact as well. The extra weight slowed her arm down a bit and stopped her from muscling it as well as forces her to have a much more consistant hand release because she cant move it around as much. The other big difference is the pin carry. On pocket hits she might leave a 10 pin here and there, but you know its either strike or 10 pin. With the 12 lb ball a pocket hit could be a strike or just knock down 6 pins. Now, I would never suggest that your child go up in weight if he cant handle it, he needs to learn the game first. But if he can handle it, going to 12 lbs would be a much better way to go, and if he can handle 13 all the better. Most bowling studies show that the magic number is 14-16 pound balls, mostly due to the manufacturers creating different weight blocks for 13 and under. When I was 12 I bought a 12 lb ball and regretted it for years because we didn't have the money to buy another so I was stuck and it hurt my game as time went on. I could have totally handled a 14 lb ball as I was about 120 at the time and strong as an ox lol j/k. As others have said, get what he can handle (Ron Clifton has a great article on how to determine this) because he needs to learn the game first. But if you are on the fence about lower or higher (as long as he can handle both), always go higher because of the pin carry.
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#138736 - 11/07/10 08:16 PM Re: Same Models, Different Specs [Re: aoiten]
aoiten Offline
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Registered: 03/03/10
Posts: 1415
A/S/L: amerika ni sunde iru
Conflicting suggestions almost. We have a good compromise though. We signed up for an Ebonite demo/clinic in the near future. That will allow the kid to try different models of 12 and 13 pound balls if they fit his span. The last thing I want is for him to use a ball that is too heavy.

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#138737 - 11/07/10 08:21 PM Re: Same Models, Different Specs [Re: aoiten]
Norm3v Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 06/28/10
Posts: 270
A/S/L: 34 M NJ US
Originally Posted By: aoiten
Conflicting suggestions almost. We have a good compromise though. We signed up for an Ebonite demo/clinic in the near future. That will allow the kid to try different models of 12 and 13 pound balls if they fit his span. The last thing I want is for him to use a ball that is too heavy.


Perfect! Awesome idea!
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Currently in the bag:
- IQ Tour Pearl
- Hy-Road Pearl
- Lucid
- Tropical Heat Pearl (Red/Blue)

High Game: 300 (2)
High Series: 758
Average: 210

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#138738 - 11/07/10 08:27 PM Re: Same Models, Different Specs [Re: trekguy]
aoiten Offline
Legend

Registered: 03/03/10
Posts: 1415
A/S/L: amerika ni sunde iru
Originally Posted By: trekguy

An 11 pound ball is going to deflect... it's just too light in comparison to the pins. Hmm... at 11.5 y/o.I would think it's more important to work on basic fundamentals like timing, balance, and proper hand position and release than tweaking ball covers etc. The worst thing that can happen to a kid who's trying to learn the game, is to throw a ball that hooks too much... it develops a lazy release, and bad inside/out habits. Better to go with a tamer ball, and make it work. imo grin


Right now the current ball doesn't hook a lot, unless the lane is ideal for it. A former pro commented that the kid lays the ball down really smooth. He can roll a sweet hook, but he does have a balance issue and no formal targeting system. Still, he can control the ball in more ways than I can. Back-up, big hook, little hook. Straight is a problem though for some reason.

I do NOT want to push the weight or have the ball hooking on auto-pilot. I do want his ball to better match his abilities and his home lanes.

I should have used my original plan. I was going to get a 12 pound originally, and if it was too heavy at the time, he could have just two-handed it for a while. He two-hands anyway for some backup shots and for a bigger hook at left side spares. (I like the backup, but I don't usually advise that big hook at the 7-pin! heh)

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#138739 - 11/07/10 08:39 PM Re: Same Models, Different Specs [Re: Norm3v]
aoiten Offline
Legend

Registered: 03/03/10
Posts: 1415
A/S/L: amerika ni sunde iru
Originally Posted By: Norm3v

Perfect! Awesome idea!


Dood, I'm going to print that and hang it up. Any time someone tells me I have bad ideas, I'll just go and read it. haha (Actually, my wife made sure I turned in the sign-up sheet. heh)

Yeah, the demo/clinic things sounds nice. In addition to just being able to try the balls, it comes with 2 hours of lane time, bowling tips, and a $10 discount on a ball purchase.

BTW, Norm3v, my wife switched from a Mongoose Lifter-style wrist positioner to a Brunswick PowrKoil and she not only qualified for an ABT semi-final for the first time, she cashed in the top 4! She used a lightly sanded Reign the whole time. We regretted choosing the Reign until two days ago. Today it paid for itself. hehe


Edited by aoiten (11/07/10 08:40 PM)

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#138745 - 11/07/10 09:59 PM Re: Same Models, Different Specs [Re: aoiten]
Brian Longo Offline
Legend

Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 1393
A/S/L: 37/M/Jacksonville, NC
Originally Posted By: aoiten
I'm thinking about moving my son up to 12 pound ball. He complains about lack of hook and carry using 10 or 11 pound balls. The question is, how could I estimate the performance difference based on the specs? For example...

10# Smash, 2.72, 0.031
12# Smash, 2.62, 0.046
15# Smash, 2.55, 0.041

11# Tropical Heat hybrid, (N/A)
12# Tropical Heat hybrid, 2.70, 0.021
15# Tropical Heat hybrid, 2.55, 0.038


The rule of thumb for weight is 1 pound of ball weight per 10 pounds of person. So, if your son weighs 130 pounds, theoretically he could handle a 13 pound ball. That number is subjective, of course, depending on a bowler's skill and stature.

The numbers don't mean a whole lot by themselves. You can have two balls with the exact same core specs but with different surfaces. The #1 factor in ball reaction is surface, followed by pin position, CG/mass bias location, and balance holes. The core numbers, in conjunction with surface, will *aid* in ball selection. And even this information alone will only determine hook *potential*. What determines hook is the bowler and the lane conditions, and certain surfaces/core values are better suited to certain lane conditions.

A respectable ball driller will ask these basic questions:

  • Where on the lane do you normally play?
  • How much do conditions change?
  • When do conditions change?
  • When does the ball normally start to hook?

Using this information, and watching the customer, a good selection can be made. A "hack" will punch out the nearest high-dollar ball with the "big hooking layout" and send you on your way without watching you bowl. A "pro" will watch you bowl until he/she is satisfied, layout the correct ball (not necessarily the one you've got your heart dead-set on) according to your needs, and watch you throw the new ball. Most will even provide pointers and even follow up. You should get the latter out of the clinic.
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