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#138358 - 10/30/10 10:47 PM Re: Why can't I stay under the ball? [Re: Raydee]
10PinGaloot Offline
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Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 2094
A/S/L: 65/m/ Woodburn, OR
Originally Posted By: Raydee
I am suprised that you thought my thumb was coming out soon....
Originally Posted By: 10PinGaloot
It looks to me like it's falling off the thumb. Maybe you need a better grip, meaning one or more of these:
1 - tighter thumbhole
...

well,, upon watching a second time, I see that your problem is that your hand is on top of the ball. Sorry. That made me think you had the hand under the ball and then the thumb slipped out. However, now I'm thinking that you never even had the hand under or behind the ball to begin with at any point in your swing.

You have to get your hand behind and under the ball. I would follow the suggestions Atochabsh made, and buy a 10 pound Kettlebell at Target and build up your wrist strength if you don't want to bowl with a relaxed/limp wrist. You should be able to hold the ball with your wrist in a firm position - fingers below the equator - for 10 seconds.

My wife bowls with a relaxed wrist, and she gets good axis rotations. I can't tell you how she does it, though.

I have found a way to bowl without muscle, and will post a video maybe in January, when I get my replacement flip. It only took me - let's see - 50 years.

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#138380 - 10/31/10 01:20 PM Re: Why can't I stay under the ball? [Re: Raydee]
Raydee Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 02/21/07
Posts: 120
A/S/L: NY
Well I just got back from bowling 10 or 11 games and I am still struggling to stay under the ball. I talked to a older guy at the alley and he said that he tried for years to stay under the ball and was never able to get it perfect. I did the backup ball drill for about 2 games and found that I indeed stayed under the ball more after switching back but I also lost a lot of hook. I will say one thing, with the backup ball I was shooting 10 pins like never before, I think I missed one in 10 games. Looks like my spare ball is staying home from now on. In the last three games I put my wrist brace on and in the first game I shot 7 in a row, every ball felt perfect coming out of my hand and had great rotation. I took video of it and was a bit disapointed to see that I was still not under the ball like I thought. I am going to keep working at it and see what happens.

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#138381 - 10/31/10 01:58 PM Re: Why can't I stay under the ball? [Re: Raydee]
dagin Offline
Junior Master

Registered: 08/10/10
Posts: 39
A/S/L: 47/F/NJ
How about rolling thumbless as a drill to get the feel for being well under the ball?
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#138383 - 10/31/10 02:11 PM Re: Why can't I stay under the ball? [Re: Raydee]
Raydee Offline
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Registered: 02/21/07
Posts: 120
A/S/L: NY
I tried thumbless a few years ago and it just wasn't for me. I couldn't control the hook most of the time and ended up shooting a plastic ball.


Edited by Raydee (10/31/10 03:36 PM)

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#138385 - 10/31/10 03:35 PM Re: Why can't I stay under the ball? [Re: Raydee]
Raydee Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 02/21/07
Posts: 120
A/S/L: NY
I am going to post some vid in a few minutes but I played some of it frame by frame and even though I am not staying under the ball like I want to I did notice that I am staying on the side of the ball now and not coming over the top like I have been causing the ball to spin on a 90* axis which in turn caused the ball to just spin down the lane. At least now my axis is a little better and it is hooking on the lane. I think I have a new gameplan for the next time I bowl.

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#138386 - 10/31/10 03:37 PM Re: Why can't I stay under the ball? [Re: Raydee]
VFF57 Offline
Legend

Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 1636
A/S/L: 50's/M/NJ
I've been working on staying behind the ball longer on and off as well. Not an easy thing to conquer since coming around the side too early for me seems to be a reflex. I did the same thing as you with the back-up ball drills, wrist brace training, curls, etc. and have made some progress.

There's times when I feel good with my release because I can feel my fingers coming out last and torquing the ball rotation. Other times, not so good because I can feel myself turning with my thumb still in the ball. The pins know the difference between releases because they're either flipping around with flying messengers or sounding flat with not much pin action.

The good news with having higher axis rotation is drier lanes are not as much of a problem.
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#138388 - 10/31/10 03:47 PM Re: Why can't I stay under the ball? [Re: Raydee]
Raydee Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 02/21/07
Posts: 120
A/S/L: NY
When I bowled on old dry wood lanes a few years back I never noticed any problems with my high axis rotation. I took a couple years off and when I came back all the local alley's have changed to synthetic lanes and are always oiling them now. It made a huge difference in how my ball rolled. Instead of having a nice hook with high axis rotation I am now just watching the ball slide down the lane with very little reaction unless I shoot the ball very slow. As most of the guys here know, when you shoot it slow you have lower pin action. I will say that today was def a big improvement for me and to be honest if I can't ever get my hand to stay behind the ball I would be happy with the axis rotation I had today. My ball was reacting pretty well and my rotation looked way better in my opinion.

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#138390 - 10/31/10 04:38 PM Re: Why can't I stay under the ball? [Re: Raydee]
dagin Offline
Junior Master

Registered: 08/10/10
Posts: 39
A/S/L: 47/F/NJ
Originally Posted By: Raydee
I tried thumbless a few years ago and it just wasn't for me. I couldn't control the hook most of the time and ended up shooting a plastic ball.


If you rolled thumbless and had too much hook, you needed to stay more behind the ball. (Same problem.) The sensitivity of the thumbless delivery might allow you to notice small changes more easily. It also challenges your nervous system to adapt, during which you could reprogram your routine. If you could master the drill, you'd have learned to stay under the ball at the same time.

Another thing you could try at home is holding a stick and trying to maintain a 45 degree angle with it as you swing your hand through a delivery motion.
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#138391 - 10/31/10 04:44 PM Re: Why can't I stay under the ball? [Re: Raydee]
Raydee Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 02/21/07
Posts: 120
A/S/L: NY
Its funny because when I practice at home I can keep my hand right where it needs to be but as soon as the 15lb ball is in my hand all bets are off. I will give thumbless another shot this week and see what I think.

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#138392 - 10/31/10 05:01 PM Re: Why can't I stay under the ball? [Re: Raydee]
Raydee Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 02/21/07
Posts: 120
A/S/L: NY
Ok here is my old shots.


New shots with less axis roatation.


Toward the end I put my wrist positioneer back on.

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