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#120596 - 03/02/10 06:20 PM substitute question
kkeys Offline
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Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 21
A/S/L: 53/m/ca
I bowl in a 4 person mixed fun league 3 game series. last week the team we bowled against had 2 no shows at the start of league. players A and B not showing. the other team opted to use a substitute for player A. at the end of the 1st game player A showed up. starting the second game the other team used the sub for player B, player A bowled for himself. Should the substitutes scores have substituted for player B for all 3 games and player A taken an absent score for the first game. or can the substitute switch who they bowl for from game to game. Again this is a fun league so I wouldnt have protested in any case. But would like to know the rule. Thanks
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#120602 - 03/02/10 06:54 PM Re: substitute question [Re: kkeys]
trekguy Offline
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Registered: 11/28/08
Posts: 783
A/S/L: 56/M/Mn
Originally Posted By: kkeys
I bowl in a 4 person mixed fun league 3 game series. last week the team we bowled against had 2 no shows at the start of league. players A and B not showing. the other team opted to use a substitute for player A. at the end of the 1st game player A showed up. starting the second game the other team used the sub for player B, player A bowled for himself. Should the substitutes scores have substituted for player B for all 3 games and player A taken an absent score for the first game. or can the substitute switch who they bowl for from game to game. Again this is a fun league so I wouldnt have protested in any case. But would like to know the rule. Thanks



Interesting... hmmm, don't know. If absent score is avg+hcp-10... would it matter either way? Is it a two couple mixed league, or any combo? The only way I could see a problem is if there would be a difference/advantage between the men's or women's absent score.

I would think that once you decide on a lineup at the beginning of a game, the scores would have to stand for that game. ?? It would be odd to go back and change a completed game's results because someone showed for the last two.

Good question, hopefully a rules expert will come along and answer.
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#120604 - 03/02/10 07:01 PM Re: substitute question [Re: trekguy]
leftykev Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 329
A/S/L: Spokane, WA
Unless it's in the league rules, subbing is on a game by game basis, so YES, it's possible for a sub to bowl 1 game for a late arriving bowler, then be freed from bowling for that specific bowler, freeing him/her up to sub for another late arriving, or absent bowler on the same team or other team.

Obviously, you need to keep the recap correct when writing down scores.

Originally Posted By: kkeys
Should the substitutes scores have substituted for player B for all 3 games and player A taken an absent score for the first game. or can the substitute switch who they bowl for from game to game.


For the game the sub bowls, you mark his/her scores and not mark the missing bowler's score for the game.

Bowler A
Game 1
Game 2 = Score
Game 3 = Score

Bowler B
Game 1 = Blind Score
Game 2
Game 3

Sub
Game 1 = Score
Game 2 = Score
Game 3 = Score


Edited by leftykev (03/02/10 07:08 PM)

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#120607 - 03/02/10 07:07 PM Re: substitute question [Re: trekguy]
kkeys Offline
Junior

Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 21
A/S/L: 53/m/ca
The hdcp is 90% of 220. Absent score is avg+hcp-10. Player A has 180 avg. Player B has 110 avg. sub has 175 avg. Wouldnt it be smarter to sub for the higher handicap (player B)all 3 games?
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#120609 - 03/02/10 07:13 PM Re: substitute question [Re: leftykev]
Calvin Pistorio Offline
State Champion Contender

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 6283
A/S/L: 32/m/maryland
Originally Posted By: leftykev
Unless it's in the league rules, subbing is on a game by game basis, so YES, it's possible for a sub to bowl 1 game for a late arriving bowler, then be freed from bowling for that specific bowler, freeing him/her up to sub for another late arriving, or absent bowler on the same team or other team.

Obviously, you need to keep the recap correct when writing down scores.


I gotta agree. This is basically a line up change which can be done each game.
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#120618 - 03/02/10 08:39 PM Re: substitute question [Re: Calvin Pistorio]
J_w73 Offline
Legend

Registered: 05/08/08
Posts: 1032
A/S/L: 37/M/Northern CA
I think this rule would pertain to the situation.. It looks like the substitute can sub for anybody the captain chooses. And it is a game by game basis.

If two members are absent and only one substitute is obtained, which absentee
score is used?
According to Rule 104a, Item 1, the team captain is responsible for the eligibility of the team
and determines whom the substitute will replace. First, the captain determines whom the
substitute will replace and then the absentee score is determined.
When the team has a limited roster, the process is easy. The captain selects the player the
substitute replaces, and the absentee score of the other player is used.
When a team has additional players on its roster, the captain decides whom the substitute is
replacing. Whoever the substitute is replacing, the absentee score for that absent member
cannot be used. According to Rule 105, Item e(2), the absentee score of the player with the
most games is used for the other player. If two absentee scores are needed after the substitute
is in place, the absentee score of the absentee with the next highest number of games is used
50 bowl.com
and when two absent members have the same number of games, the lower absentee score is
used. (See CAQ 118d/1 for cap information.)

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#120735 - 03/03/10 11:55 AM Re: substitute question [Re: J_w73]
sk8shorty01 Offline
Virtual League Champion x2

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 5163
A/S/L: 30/M/Merritt Island, FL
kkeys, that rule for handicapping is usually talked about for individual averages. Most leagues have adopted some form of the "difference in team averages" handicapping system. My league uses the 90% of 220 for individual handicap awards, then uses 90% of the difference in team averages to apply handicap for the lower average team on a per game basis.

My league has also made a rule that if you have more than one absent then the sub must take the place of the person with the least amount of games bowled, or the highest average if there is an equal number of total games bowler.


I do agree though that this is simply a lineup change. Not many people know this but you can actually sub a bowler in mid-game, it just gets messy for the league secretary. Here is how it would work.

Bowler A bowls 3 frames and leaves a 10 pin (righty) in the third. Bowler B would be subbed in for the remainder of the game (lefty) and would shoot the spare. The handicap would be figured in percentages. Bowler A would use 30% of his handicap for the game for the three frames he/she bowled and bowler B would use 70% of his/her handicap for the 7 frames they bowled. The score would be credited to the bowler that started the game, therefore any honor scores or awards would be given to Bowler A, along with the game affecting their average. If bowler A had a low average and bowler B came in with a huge finish to the game, bowler A's average could dramatically (and artificially) be driven up.

This is how I understand the rule to work anyways, Erin will probably have a better idea because she is a little more involved in the background stuff than I.
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