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#111739 - 12/31/09 12:52 AM Baggers
General Pounder Offline
3x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 03/28/06
Posts: 3398
A/S/L: 40/M/Midlothian, IL
I have a guy in my league who is a known bagger. There is a 9-tap tourney every year in Feb. It goes the whole month on Mondays-Thursdays after leagues. They take your highest league average as of Jan 1 for the tourney. Year after year, the month of Feb, he would bowl somewhat bad. This year, he took the cake. Going into last week, he was at 184. I was out last week due to my wife throwing her back out again. Well, last week he shot 330, this week he shot 331. I have heard complaints but the ones tonight were basically that people want him out of the league. I looked it up and I have cause to do so. What I want to know is how hard is it to pitch someone? There has to be a written complaint which someone from his team is willing to write. Then, the league officers can vote him out. Then he can appeal. Has anyone does this? Thanks.
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#111745 - 12/31/09 02:17 AM Re: Baggers [Re: General Pounder]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
You can follow rule 115, on the "Conduct derogatory to the best interest of the league".

The problem is that once you hold the meeting and submit the results of the meeting to the local assoc. and they to USBC, they will look at the evidence of his sandbagging. If its just this one 1/2 league of evidence its not enough for USBC to uphold the removal from the league (especially if he is paid up on his dues).

So while you await the meeting etc..... do everything in your power to find past history of his tournament play and his average in those tournaments. Plus contact the local association for a track of his summer and winter league participation. Many of these guys sub in leagues right up until they get to 21 games and then quit the league or stop subbing. They do it in summer league especially and winter league. This is all evidence of past behavior that supports your sandbagging accusation.

Remember Google is a wonderful tool.

Now one thing that all sanctioned tournaments tend to have in their rules is that the committee has the right to re rate any bowler. The tournament committee just has to "grow a couple..." and do it. Remember if you remove this one player you are allowing the enjoyment of the tournament of many more. And each time a bagger wins, you lose participants for next time.

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#111753 - 12/31/09 07:54 AM Re: Baggers [Re: Atochabsh]
Calvin Pistorio Offline
State Champion Contender

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 6283
A/S/L: 32/m/maryland
If you aren't able to get him out of the league for the rest of this season he can be uninvited for next season. Leagues are invitational by nature and the Board of Directors or league as a whole could vote at the end of the season or the pre-season meeting to not allow him in the league.
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#111757 - 12/31/09 08:36 AM Re: Baggers [Re: Calvin Pistorio]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9820
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Is this a league problem or a tournament problem? I have witnessed 300's being bowled in no-tap tournaments be 180 bowlers. So, that's not uncommon. What is uncommon is the repetitiveness of this bowler.

Many tournaments establish tournament averages for bowlers who have repeatedly scored higher then their sanctioned average. This is routine for tournaments who run annual events with a large number of repeat bowlers.
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#111787 - 12/31/09 12:07 PM Re: Baggers [Re: Dennis Michael]
who's that Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 489
A/S/L: 35 Male New Jersey
All this due to a annual no-tap tournament?!!!! Just about everyone's a sandbagger depending on who you ask. Once you start down this path where does it stop. Last night I sub's in a Pro Shop league for a friend who has the most 300's in are state. He goes all around NJ, DE, PA, NY and sub's all year average between 245-255 at every house. He makes sure to stay just below USBC guidelines of 24 games. He only has one league that exceeds the guideline to stay eligible for tournaments. That's smart if you ask me!

I don't know about you but scratch tournements are few & far between around here. And there are professional bowlers in most the competitive men's leagues. I view what your thinking about doing as a far bigger deal then some others might. Maybe if the guys a known 240 average bowler, and now he's carrying a 170 then fine. But if the guys a 215-220 average bowler averaging 180, let it go..
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#111791 - 12/31/09 12:23 PM Re: Baggers [Re: who's that]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3825
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
I hate sandbaggers. If there is a guy averaging 245-255 wherever he bowls, he should not have any problem competing against the pros in scratch tournaments. In my opinion, bowlers averaging over 220 have outgrown handicap tournaments.
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#111792 - 12/31/09 12:25 PM Re: Baggers [Re: who's that]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
Quote:
Many tournaments establish tournament averages for bowlers who have repeatedly scored higher then their sanctioned average.


That's why you need to find and track their tournament results even though you are concerned about league performance. Baggers tend to all of a sudden bowl much better in tournaments. If you can establish a tournament average and compare it to their book average, its a good basis for removal from the league. Or at least rerating them for local tournaments.

Quote:
He goes all around NJ, DE, PA, NY and sub's all year average between 245-255 at every house. He makes sure to stay just below USBC guidelines of 24 games. He only has one league that exceeds the guideline to stay eligible for tournaments. That's smart if you ask me!


We officially rerated someone two years ago for doing exactly this. USBC upheld the rerate and he was disqualified from a large tournament. 21 games is the magic number.

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#111796 - 12/31/09 12:49 PM Re: Baggers [Re: Atochabsh]
tbill Offline
Touring Pro Contender

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 693
A/S/L: 42/m/ny
who's that, i think it's more than the tourney, it sounds as if most of the league wants this fellow out, even his own team [ if i re-read the op correctly].
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#111804 - 12/31/09 01:23 PM Re: Baggers [Re: Joe Bowler]
who's that Offline
Team USA Contender

Registered: 05/17/09
Posts: 489
A/S/L: 35 Male New Jersey
Joe, if you think that a 220 & a 230 average bowler is basically of the same skill level, you couldn't be further from the truth! And for you to put everyone above 220 in the same class is ridiculous!! So a 170 average bowler should bowl scratch against a 205 average bowler? Because if you do the math 255 minus 220 you get a 35 pin difference!

This is the problem, once you eclipse the 220 mark ABT and just about all local tournements view its competitors of a equal skill level. Guys who average 220 aren't winning any scratch tournements around these parts. The 240 + bowlers do. Its just about impossible to win a ABT without ant pins. Once you add in handicap the scores are usually something like (268+0) to (219+50) 269..

If you think about it, its the better bowlers that don't bowl in most the tournements. They figure why bother!
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#111822 - 12/31/09 03:19 PM Re: Baggers [Re: who's that]
Joe Bowler Offline
2x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3825
A/S/L: 50s/M/MD
Originally Posted By: who's that
Joe, if you think that a 220 & a 230 average bowler is basically of the same skill level, you couldn't be further from the truth! And for you to put everyone above 220 in the same class is ridiculous!! So a 170 average bowler should bowl scratch against a 205 average bowler? Because if you do the math 255 minus 220 you get a 35 pin difference!

This is the problem, once you eclipse the 220 mark ABT and just about all local tournements view its competitors of a equal skill level. Guys who average 220 aren't winning any scratch tournements around these parts. The 240 + bowlers do. Its just about impossible to win a ABT without ant pins. Once you add in handicap the scores are usually something like (268+0) to (219+50) 269..

If you think about it, its the better bowlers that don't bowl in most the tournements. They figure why bother!


What I think...

- When refering to average, I am talking about 21+ game book average, not what a bowler averaged in their last 6-game tournament.

- Yes, bowlers averaging 220 to 230 are in the same competitive range. Take a look at the range of averages for all the pros, exempt pros, and non-exempt pros.

- A bowler averaging 245-255 everywhere is either an anomaly or an exaggeration. An average like that would put the bowler in the top 10 in the USBC National record book.

- Around these parts, it is rare for handicap tournaments to give pins for bowlers with averages above 220. That automatically put's everybody above 220 in the same class - scratch. Everybody under 220 gets pins. So the 170 bowler should get X number of pins depending on the handicap percent when bowling against the 205 bowler.

- Concerning the ABT, when it was in the DC area, I don't remember a single match where I was not giving away pins. In fact, there were several occasions when I was giving away the max 68 pins. Still, I won 5 titles, 7 second place finishes, 3 thirds, around $10,000, and the title WDC ABT Bowler of the Year. It gave me great pleasure to beat all of the sandbaggers.

- The best bowlers do compete...and win. It's the baggers, wannabees, and pretenders that look for an unfair advantage, make excuses, etc., instead of working on their game.
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