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#112426 - 01/05/10 10:01 PM Re: camera recommendations? [Re: RDubYa]
Rocket Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 03/23/09
Posts: 1959
A/S/L: 45/male/Ohio
Rdubya, I downloaded the trial version of motion-pro and I can see your point. My wife bought me a cheap video camera for Christmas and when I put the video in Motion pro some of the features could not be used well because I can not clearly make out the arrows on the lanes and such.

Its pretty cool in the full edition you can even check out ball speed and rpm. (Motion view ) pretty similar software will let you do it in trail mode but again video not clear enough to get good results

Now how to get a better video camera without hurting her feelings and the cash for the software??? Looks like more jewelry for her is on its way!

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#112436 - 01/05/10 11:14 PM Re: camera recommendations? [Re: Rocket]
RDubYa Offline
USBC Silver Coach

Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 180
A/S/L: Florida
I had a guess that you might feel that way, but you gotta give your wife credit for trying to help you out with a camera.

I use BowlersMap Gold which cost almost $1000 and I also have the full instructional version of MotionPro which is hundreds less in price.

I use MotionPro and they guarantee free updates for life. Also, many of my students have purchased the software so they can make and analyze their own videos.

The original camera specs I gave you were from the MotionPro website. Good luck on finding the right jewelry to get the job done!

#112906 - 01/09/10 12:38 PM Re: camera recommendations? [Re: RDubYa]
sk8shorty01 Offline
Virtual League Champion x2

Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 5166
A/S/L: 30/M/Merritt Island, FL
RDubYa, because you seem to know a few things about cameras have you seen the Go Pro HD cameras that are now available for sports?

I was just curious if something like this would work for the OP.
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#112985 - 01/10/10 12:02 AM Re: camera recommendations? [Re: sk8shorty01]
RDubYa Offline
USBC Silver Coach

Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 180
A/S/L: Florida
No I had not seen this camera system before and it sounds like it is relatively new since some of the videos say they are "pre-production". In reading the specs I found some serious deficiencies for use for bowling.

1. The camera has a "fixed focus" lens with no zoom feature. It is important to be able to zoom in on footwork, release, or downlane to show revolutions. This camera does not afford you with these zoom options. This is also important just to get the right amount of image in the picture field. You want your body to take up most of the visual field versus having the picture look like someone is 20 feet away filming you or so close that only your upper body is visible.

2. I slso didn't see any information on shutter speed so that you can insure that slow motion videos are not blurred in areas like the release.

3. I would like to know who makes this camera. Since I didn't see them referring to a name brand manufacturer, I would be reluctant to move away from companies whose main product is video equipment.

4. I think you can get a camera as good or better for the same price with the features that I mentioned above.

Good luck!

#113064 - 01/10/10 05:07 PM Re: camera recommendations? [Re: RDubYa]
Smooth Stroker Offline

Registered: 07/10/03
Posts: 1905
A/S/L: 45/M/Long Island
I use a Canon HD video camera. got it on sale a while back. No hard drive. I haven't bought a bowling program yet. I will say to make sure you computer is up to date. If you have an older and slightly slower model, the video might not edit in real time. My not that old Mac is just before they switched over to intel processors. It's not fast enough to handle HD in real time. From what I read, I need a quad processor. Real bummer. I bought this one so I could upgrade it, can't upgrade to the intel processors. I have to buy a new computer. I know I can get a mini for real cheap but cheap is still more than I can spend at the moment. oh well.
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#113068 - 01/10/10 05:42 PM Re: camera recommendations? [Re: Smooth Stroker]
franz Offline
League Bowler

Registered: 01/30/09
Posts: 64
A/S/L: 25/male/united states
I use a Kodak ZI6 for making videos. Kodak now makes camera's that can shoot video in HD but also being a little pocket camcorder rather than an actaul digital camera. The ZI6 is there older model from about a 1 1/2 years ago. It can shoot in 720P HD and has a fixed focus lens. It has a 1.6 MP sensor and can shoot 3MP photos. It can shoot 720P HD video at 30 or 60 frames a second.

The Photo's wont look to great but the video is very good. I was able to get the Zi6 at Sears for $80. If you don't want to spend a lot of money then I would go with a pocket HD camcorder. I have used a Hitachi DVD Camcorder and a Panasonic SDR-S10 flash camcorder. Both tended to have focus problems sometimes. You could see the picture and lighting change ever so slightly.

Kodak digital cameras I don't think are considered to be very reliable but with the ZI6 there is no lens then opens up. It's just a fixed focus lens so it doesn't use much power. It shouldn't break anytime soon either.

#113123 - 01/11/10 05:29 AM Re: camera recommendations? [Re: franz]
mgeorg Offline
Junior Master

Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 38
A/S/L: 51/M/Butler, PA has a DXG High-Definition Super Slim Handheld Digital Camcorder, 720p with 3" LCD Monitor, 2x Digital Zoom, CMOS 5.0MP Image Sensor, Still camera Mode 5.0 MP, Rechargeable NIMH Batteries, Photo Special Effects, Voice Recording, Expandable Memory, USB 2.0 Interface and More! Model # DXG-569V for $64.99 after shipping.

#113134 - 01/11/10 08:50 AM Re: camera recommendations? [Re: mgeorg]
spectral Offline
Action Bowler

Registered: 12/25/09
Posts: 245
A/S/L: 24/M/Belgium

what would be your best budget choice?

since i (and probably a lot of members here as well) am not willing to spend 1000+$ on a camera just for watching me bowl, i have no other uses for a camera so far.

you seem to know a lot about this so how about a recommendation?

#113168 - 01/11/10 12:49 PM Re: camera recommendations? [Re: spectral]
lewtrek Offline
League Bowler

Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 72
A/S/L: Chicago
well my camera is good enough for now, it's a Panasonic lumix tz5. I was just wondering what options were out there that would do higher fps (this one is 30 fps). Good enough I can use quicktime for frame-by-frame.

I'll eventually get one of those exilims i think. I haven't seen anything that matches it yet for the money.

Edited by lewtrek (01/11/10 01:17 PM)
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#113173 - 01/11/10 01:03 PM Re: camera recommendations? [Re: spectral]
TenPin_ Offline
Regional Pro Contender

Registered: 12/27/07
Posts: 505
A/S/L: 32/M/TX
For lots of info on camcorders check out

I'm not sure about pricing or availability in Belgium, you might be stuck with higher prices than I talk about below just because of where you are. Can you get stuff from or Ebay without paying import taxes or tons for shipping?

Prices for HD camcorders have come down dramatically in the last year, while the high end models are still in the $1000+ range, there are plenty that are worth owning at a much lower price. In fact there are some entry level HD camcorders from name brand companies (Sony, Canon) that can be had for around $500, which is what I would suggest, unless you are on a very tight budget.

Inexpensive pocket cameras can work and give you ok results but the cameras come with limitations, such as not having an optical zoom (digital zooms are just short of worthless), not having selectable shutter speeds or preset modes, not having an auto focus lens, using a lot of compression (which causes detail loss), not working well in low light, not having a good dynamic range (bright areas become blown out, dark areas are completely black), etc.

There are a number of camcorders starting at about $250 that solve some of the above limitations. They are DV cameras (not HD) and have real optical zoom lenses, auto focus, lower compression ratios, and while a lot of them don't let you set the shutter manually they at least have preset "scene" modes that you can use to try to get the camcorder to do what you want. Ignoring most other aspects, these will capture a better quality video than pocket cameras simply because of the lens being of higher quality, able to zoom, and having auto focus. Reliable brands are Sony, Canon, Panasonic, JVC.

Finally as I mentioned above there are some HD camcorders that are going for around $500 now that are pretty good camcorders. Canon, Sony, and JVC each have HD camcorders with zoom lenses, auto focus, etc that are between $475 and $525. If you can afford it I highly suggest going with an HD camcorder (especially from Canon or Sony). One other thing to keep in mind with HD video is that you will probably need to buy a program for editing. Windows Movie Maker will work with HD video but is very limited, I think Sony might include a program with some of their more expensive camcorders but not sure if they include it with all of them, and Canon doesn't include any editing software. I ended up buying Sony Vegas Platinum 9 for about $100 which is just short of a professional video editing program (a lot of amateurs use it for making their movies).

I started with a standard DV camcorder that I got for $250 because I didn't want to spend $1000 on the HD camcorder that I really wanted (this was 2 years ago). For the year I had that camcorder I was never really happy with it, the quality was ok but not great, the resolution itself was lacking because it was a fairly inexpensive DV camcorder (which I didn't know at that time), so the video wasn't really clear or detailed. It also didn't work very well in low light, the camera would often underexpose (I had no manual shutter controls) or it would turn up the gain which brightened the image but made it grainy (losing detail). I have since purchased a Canon HD camcorder and wish I had done it from the start. It's still not the best in dark places but is a lot better than the DV camcorder, plus I can control the shutter speed so I can find the best compromise between brightness, blur, and gain (grain). Also since it is full HD the resolution is a ton better, giving a sharper more detailed video, and the grain caused when in low light isn't as pronounced as it was with the DV camcorder. Another advantage of HD is that most of them (maybe all of them?) shoot at 60i FPS, which will capture more of the action and deliver better detail that other camcorders only capturing at 30 FPS would miss.

If I had to recommend a single camcorder by name that I think would give the best quality for a good price, I would say look for a used Canon HV20. It was discontinued awhile ago and is the model that came out just before the camcorder I have and has a lot of the same feature as mine. I'm sure there are others, but when I did my research a couple years ago everything pointed to the HV20.

Edit: My grammar is not as bad as this post makes it seem...the forum is removing the "s" from camera when it makes it a link.

Edit 2: Ok, now why did it work in my edit note?

Edited by TenPin_ (01/11/10 01:08 PM)
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