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#105521 - 10/17/09 07:55 PM Wheres the USBC rulebook? gutterball rules too
hifisapi Offline
Junior

Registered: 07/10/09
Posts: 27
A/S/L: M- 50+ USA
In golf we have the annual USGA official rules of golf book every year or as needed. Is there one for bowling from the USBC? I ask because the gutterball rule isnt clear to me. Most internet references score all gutterballs as zero pins and first ball gutterballs must reset any pins felled but its not clear, some say its up to the league. Isnt there a clear USBC "default" gutterball rule on this?
I think it should always be a zero score, but some people dont.
FYI, im referring to some shots that go in gutter but wobble and hit some pins after going into gutter, usually the 7 or 10 pin when it rarely happens. thanks in advance.
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Legend

Registered: Fri Aug 27 2004
Posts: 10100
A/S/L: Mountain View, CA
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#105522 - 10/17/09 07:58 PM Re: Wheres the USBC rulebook? gutterball rules too [Re: hifisapi]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California

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#105523 - 10/17/09 07:59 PM Re: Wheres the USBC rulebook? gutterball rules too [Re: hifisapi]
beefers1 Offline
Legend

Registered: 02/04/09
Posts: 1241
A/S/L: 24/M/British Columbia
It happens. There is an official USBC rulebook. http://bowl.com/rules/rulebook/index.jsp

Pinfall doesn't count after the ball has landed in the gutter. In open play you can let it slide but in league it should be strictly enforced.

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#105524 - 10/17/09 08:50 PM Re: Wheres the USBC rulebook? gutterball rules too [Re: beefers1]
hifisapi Offline
Junior

Registered: 07/10/09
Posts: 27
A/S/L: M- 50+ USA
Originally Posted By: beefers1
It happens. There is an official USBC rulebook. http://bowl.com/rules/rulebook/index.jsp

Pinfall doesn't count after the ball has landed in the gutter. In open play you can let it slide but in league it should be strictly enforced.

Thanks for the link ( its temporarily down). But I dont agree with your contention, leagues can have any special rules they want and put in their charter, but in the absence of a league or league rule, then all bowlers should follow the official rules of bowling (USBC for USA) in my opinion. You cant just make up any scoring rules you like, there has to be official and same rules for everyone. This is how amateur golf works at least, I dont see why it would be any different for bowling scoring.
_________________________
J.C. O'Connell
Hooker - Brunswick DANGER ZONE PRO HPH 15.5#
Spares - Japanese Ebonite HARD RUBBER 15.5#

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#105528 - 10/17/09 09:30 PM Re: Wheres the USBC rulebook? gutterball rules too [Re: hifisapi]
TenPin_ Offline
Regional Pro Contender

Registered: 12/27/07
Posts: 505
A/S/L: 32/M/TX
hifisapi,

I think you misunderstood what beefers said. Open play (non-league / unsanctioned / walk into the center and pay for some games of bowling) for most of us is nothing more than practice, and score doesn't matter in practice. So an extra pin that falls when it should be a gutterball doesn't matter. So there is no need to correct the score to reflect that pin.

Now if you are in open play and competing against someone (or just care about having the exact correct score), then it is up to you whether or not to correct for a pin knocked down by a gutterball. Most recreactional bowlers won't, I would venture to say the vast majority of them don't even know they are supposed to as they have never bowled in a league before.

In league play / tournaments / other sanctioned play, where score counts and rules are in effect, as soon as the ball enters the gutter the ball is out of play, and should it bounce out and hit a pin, that rack should be reset and score set to 0 (for a first ball) or for a second ball the pin count should be removed from the score. That is a set-in-stone USBC rule, and I doubt any league would elect to ignore this rule (not even sure they could).
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USBC Bronze Coach

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#105530 - 10/17/09 09:49 PM Re: Wheres the USBC rulebook? gutterball rules too [Re: TenPin_]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
A USBC sanctioned league cannot make a rule that veto's the basic principles of the game.

For example a league cannot put a rule in the league that turns the foul lights off. Or that gutters don't count or that a gutter ball is a do over.

What you do during non USBC play is up to you.

Erin

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#105531 - 10/17/09 10:10 PM Re: Wheres the USBC rulebook? gutterball rules too [Re: TenPin_]
hifisapi Offline
Junior

Registered: 07/10/09
Posts: 27
A/S/L: M- 50+ USA
Originally Posted By: TenPin_
hifisapi,

I think you misunderstood what beefers said. Open play (non-league / unsanctioned / walk into the center and pay for some games of bowling) for most of us is nothing more than practice, and score doesn't matter in practice. So an extra pin that falls when it should be a gutterball doesn't matter. So there is no need to correct the score to reflect that pin.

Now if you are in open play and competing against someone (or just care about having the exact correct score), then it is up to you whether or not to correct for a pin knocked down by a gutterball. Most recreactional bowlers won't, I would venture to say the vast majority of them don't even know they are supposed to as they have never bowled in a league before.

In league play / tournaments / other sanctioned play, where score counts and rules are in effect, as soon as the ball enters the gutter the ball is out of play, and should it bounce out and hit a pin, that rack should be reset and score set to 0 (for a first ball) or for a second ball the pin count should be removed from the score. That is a set-in-stone USBC rule, and I doubt any league would elect to ignore this rule (not even sure they could).


Before I posted this thread, I looked up whatever I could find online and it clearly stated that some leagues/tournaments etc DO allow the pinfall even on gutterballs, which is why I posted the thread. If I hadnt read this and that all leagues and USBC rules always do NOT allow pinfall scoring on gutterballs, there wouldnt be anything to discuss. Apparently, from what I have read, this rule is NOT always the same, even in some tournaments or leagues. But if the official USBC rule is that gutterballs are always scored as zero, thats fine with me, I agree with the rule. Zero skill, Zero score.

Regarding scoring by the rules, I dont believe it really matters if its a pro, league, or or recreational, there is only one way to score correctly, usbc rules unless the league or tournament states otherwise I would think. Sure if you bowling all by yourself it would not matter, but if you want to have an amateur non league or non tournament match with someone, then there has to be a predetermined and consistant set of rules for scoring. Without that
then determining the winner of a match would be sometimes impossible which would be unacceptable outcome.
I have bowled in leagues and recreationally often, there is no difference for me in desireability of consistant and clear rules of the game. If a league or tournament makes an exception to the rules and it is clear and predetermined, I have no problem with that, but in the absence of something like that, then I would think it is very desireable to use all USBC rules ( including gutterball scoring rules ) as the default for any matches whatsoever (unless its pre-agreed to use any special rules for whatever reason).
_________________________
J.C. O'Connell
Hooker - Brunswick DANGER ZONE PRO HPH 15.5#
Spares - Japanese Ebonite HARD RUBBER 15.5#

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#105533 - 10/17/09 10:26 PM Re: Wheres the USBC rulebook? gutterball rules too [Re: hifisapi]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
Some leagues and tournaments are NOT USBC sanctioned. Therefore they can be as creative as possible in how they score the game.

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#105536 - 10/17/09 11:04 PM Re: Wheres the USBC rulebook? gutterball rules too [Re: Atochabsh]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9763
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
I don't know of a league/tournament that allows a dead ball to re-enter play. Once, the ball has left the lane and enters the gutter, it is a dead ball.

Where did you find this allowable?
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#105548 - 10/18/09 05:56 AM Re: Wheres the USBC rulebook? gutterball rules too [Re: Dennis Michael]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9763
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
6b Illegal Pinfall
When any of the following occur, the delivery counts but the resulting pinfall does not:
1 A ball leaves the lane before reaching the pins
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