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#105362 - 10/15/09 07:21 AM Another full roller question
ocydroma Offline
Junior Master

Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 30
A/S/L: 41/f/GA
I've looked in the archives and found a couple posts about full rollers but they really didn't answer my questions. Is the way a full roller is defined by the Track only? Are there other defining things? It seems as though full rollers are frowned upon. The posts I did find, the majority of people suggested changing to a 3/4 roller or semi roller. What is so bad a bout being a full roller.

The reason I ask is the Track crosses the finger(s) and thumb and the full circumfrence of my balls. So am I a full roller?

Also I have no idea how my balls are drilled, I'm new to bowling so I never new it was important to know until I found this list.I just trusted the driller at the Pro Shop. If you are a full roller and your balls aren't drilled for a full roller could that be the reason I'm not getting ball reaction like the specs from the manufacturer says I should get?

Sorry for rambling but just trying to learn.

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#105377 - 10/15/09 10:35 AM Re: Another full roller question [Re: ocydroma]
10PinGaloot Offline
Legend

Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 2094
A/S/L: 65/m/ Woodburn, OR
Full rollers are not frowned upon. It's your score that counts, not how you get it. Straight shots just don't work as well as a hook.

A little side roll enlarges the pocket so you have more forgiveness. Plus hookers can use the oil to their advantage.

To get maximum pins flying around with a straight shot, hit in the pocket but high on the head pin. You have one advantage over a hooker - you can throw from left or right or straight down the middle, and still get good results.

If you aren't getting good results, then take a lesson from the pro. Should cost about $25, and well worth it.
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#105380 - 10/15/09 10:58 AM Re: Another full roller question [Re: 10PinGaloot]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
Full Rollers are not exactly frowned upon., But you do have to drill today's dynamic balls specifically for full rollers if they are one. :-) And there's basically one drill pattern. Any older drill person (or a very well mentored/tutored young driller), should be able to layout a ball for a full roller as they were more common maybe a generation ago.

Today is a day of the power game in bowling. Speed + Revs = score. Its hard to get a lot of power throwing a full roller. Plus there's not a lot of side rotation, which is why you put the "full roller drill" on the ball. And the only ones I've seen sucessfully do so, have been men. But it can be done. I would say it is easier for a full roller to get to 200 then a thumbless bowler given the same amount of experience.

Once a bowler has become a full roller and been so for years, its pretty tough to change them to a 3/4 roller. IF this pattern is not yet set in you, you might consider some coaching. Being a 3/4 roller and a woman will be of more advantage, IMO.

Erin

Erin

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#105383 - 10/15/09 11:09 AM Re: Another full roller question [Re: 10PinGaloot]
TenPin_ Offline
Regional Pro Contender

Registered: 12/27/07
Posts: 505
A/S/L: 32/M/TX
Most full rollers don't get the full benefit of high performance balls, and the layouts for drilling for a full roller are very limited. I've recently drilled a ball for a full roller and it isn't working as we had hoped, which was partially my fault but also partially because of this bowler being a full roller with very little revs. A 3/4 roller has more options available for laying out a ball and still getting a good reaction from it, even if the layout isn't exactly the best one for them or the strongest one that can be done on that ball.

That said, there is another guy in my leagues who is a full roller and has more revs than the average 3/4 roller does. He probably has around 20-22 revs and can get the ball to hook like your typical cranker does. I can't explain how he manages it but he does, and really is a full roller. He has shot around 30 - 300 games and I think he said 4 - 800 series, so you can be successful and get a lot of hook as a full roller. But he is in the minority in today's game.

Where is the pin located on your bowling balls? If you are right handed and the pin is located to the left of your thumb and slightly below, that is one of the two full roller layouts and should get you the most hook out of the ball. The other puts the pin up higher, to the left of your middle finger, and should get you more length with less hook. If the pin is anywhere else, then it probably isn't drilled right for a full roller.
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#105385 - 10/15/09 12:36 PM Re: Another full roller question [Re: ocydroma]
VFF57 Online   content
Legend

Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 1622
A/S/L: 50's/M/NJ
Quote:
Is the way a full roller is defined by the track only? Are there other defining things?


As your ball is rolling down the lane does it have a foward roll similar to a steam roller?

Quote:
What is so bad a bout being a full roller.

Nothing if you can hit the pocket and carry strikes. Full rollers have an advantage when it comes to spare shooting - they don't need a plastic ball to maintain a straight line to the target. The downside as mentioned already is the ability to take full advantage of reactive balls and bouncing them off dry areas/breakpoints in the oil pattern creating hook to the pocket.
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#105393 - 10/15/09 02:54 PM Re: Another full roller question [Re: VFF57]
ocydroma Offline
Junior Master

Registered: 10/03/09
Posts: 30
A/S/L: 41/f/GA
They don't roll like a steam roller. I can get medium rotation and i can get a hook, but the Track crosses the fingers and thumb with the Track being on the widest circumfrence of the ball. I hope this makes sense. Just trying to figure things out. I guess I'm learning just enough to be dangerous LOL!

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#105401 - 10/15/09 06:45 PM Re: Another full roller question [Re: ocydroma]
TenPin_ Offline
Regional Pro Contender

Registered: 12/27/07
Posts: 505
A/S/L: 32/M/TX
I looked at your pictures in the other thread, all three are drilled for a 3/4 roller, not a full roller.
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#105403 - 10/15/09 07:11 PM Re: Another full roller question [Re: ocydroma]
Calvin Pistorio Offline
State Champion Contender

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 6241
A/S/L: 32/m/maryland
Originally Posted By: ocydroma
They don't roll like a steam roller. I can get medium rotation and i can get a hook, but the track crosses the fingers and thumb with the track being on the widest circumfrence of the ball. I hope this makes sense. Just trying to figure things out. I guess I'm learning just enough to be dangerous LOL!


By what you are describing this doesn't exactly sound like a full roller release. It sounds more like you release straight up the back or on top of the ball and the fingers and thumb come out together. Most of the full rollers I've seen Track diagonally between the finger holes and thumb hole.
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#105418 - 10/16/09 06:20 AM Re: Another full roller question [Re: ocydroma]
CoachJim Offline
USBC Silver Coach

Registered: 09/19/06
Posts: 4665
A/S/L: Reston, Virginia USA
A full roller has a Track that goes between the middle finger and the thumb through the center of the grip.

The reason it is not used much anymore other than for spares is that the ball will get into a roll too early and hit weak or over drive through the pins cutting down on the optimum strike roll.

Ideally the ball will skid as it comes off your hand, rotate to some degree perpendicular to the direction it is traveling. As the ball comes out of the oil it starts to grab the lane and lose axis rotation and will change directions to straight with the boards for about 3ft, then roll in the direction of the remaining axis rotation to the pins. As the ball is rolling to the pins it loses axis tilt, when all of the tilt is gone the ball is said to be "rolled out".

Full rollers don't have any axis tilt and they can only increase axis rotation but so much before they make the shot unplayable.

If you were to switch to a 3/4 roller where the ball tracks next to the fingers and thumb or as far as 1" away from them, then you would see an increase in the optimum roll area as the ball would then have some axis tilt to lose before rolling out.

What causes a full roller is a clock wise rotation of the hand at the point of release. As the thumb exits the ball the fingers rotate slightly clockwise (right handed) and throw the thumb out into the Track. If you rotate your hand counter clockwise (right handed) you would pull the thumb away from the Track.

Full roller drilling do not affect the movement of the ball, they only help prevent the ball from flaring over the holes by making it flare backwards away from the thumb.

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#105425 - 10/16/09 09:27 AM Re: Another full roller question [Re: CoachJim]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9232
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
Back in the days of shellac lanes, bowlers had to affect the ball to hook, and the Full-roller was the best way to do it. Balls didn't have offset weights as they do today, but just a pancake weight on the top, where the finger holes would be drilled. So, where today's balls are hooked by the placement of the internal weight and the cover, yesterday's balls were hooked by the finger manipulation at the release.

The full-roller release was the favored way to produce a hook. The ball was released with the thumb and the middle finger at the same time. At the release, the fingers imparted a side rotation. This gave the ball a full rotation that tracked between the thumb and fingers, but it had very little tilt, if any. Additional hook was given by manipulating the fingers to turn the axis of rotation. Many full-roller bowlers developed calluses on the index finger sides of their finger nails and the inside of their thumbs in trying to hook balls this way. The hand had the thumb at 10 o'clock and the fingers at 3. Bowler's hands used to be ugly and disfigured because of these calluses. Bowlers like [censored] Hoover were successful with this release, causing the ball to have a down and in trajectory, but fairly straight into the pocket.

When lacquer replaced shellac, the full rollers couldn't roll a hook, no matter what they did. They would fold their fingers at the release, and go into a finger snapping motion to get it to hook. Others rotated their hands radically which caused the ball to spin more.

As offset weights became popular, many full rollers developed more side turn and finger hits on the ball to maintain their hook. Billy Golembiewski is an example of this. His Track actually moved to outside of the middle finger and inside of the thumb on an angle.

Yes, the full roller Track rolls the entire length on the ball surface, and between the thumb and the fingers. If a full roller were to use any conventional finger placement on today's offset weighted balls, the Track would be over the finger holes.

John Jowdy calls the full roller one of the 7 ineffective rolls for a strike ball, along with the back up, full spinner and fingers first, end over end, with little hitting power and deflection.
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