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#103920 - 09/27/09 12:05 AM Question about USBC rule for bowler starting late.
Leopard11 Offline
Bracket Donor

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 148
A/S/L: 35/M/MD/USA
Ok, question... team A (3 member teams)has a bowler absent who has not pre-bowled. The persons score is thrown in as 10 pins under their avg. Normal thing to do. The bowler is the teams 1st positioned bowler on their roster. We begin our first game, get to the 4th frame. The 2nd and 3rd bowlers of team A have bowled thus the 4th frame for team A has been bowled. Our team B which has all of its bowlers present and while our 2nd positioned bowler is bowling their 4th frame, the person shows up. They had us stop bowling while they fixed the -10 pin score for their bowler and had the person bowl 4 frames. Question one is this legal and if not should their score have stayed their avg minus 10 pins for that game which was game 1 of 3? Question 2 would this person be allowed to bowl at all in the following 2 games?


Edited by Leopard11 (09/27/09 12:06 AM)
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#103921 - 09/27/09 12:24 AM Re: Question about USBC rule for bowler starting late. [Re: Leopard11]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
I think that as soon as the anchor of the opposing team compleats their third frame, then the other team's absent bowler cannot finish the game. They can jump in on the second game. The number of frames is dictated by the league rules.

I cannot find anything in USBC rules where it pertains to this. But then USBC has changed a lot of things about their web site and things are not easy to find any longer.

Erin

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#103922 - 09/27/09 01:27 AM Re: Question about USBC rule for bowler starting late. [Re: Atochabsh]
cgeorg Offline


Registered: 10/12/07
Posts: 3567
A/S/L: Pittsburgh, Pa
I don't know if it is USBC or league rules that have dictated this, but in any league I've been in, you have until the end of the 3rd frame to un-absent a bowler. After that, you have to wait till the next game. My current league is brutal too - if you don't have 5, you take a 150 for the highest average on the roster that isn't present. So if you have someone with a 250 book average bowl once as a sub, and your 160 bowler doesn't show up, you're getting a 150 while handicap is calculated as if the 250 bowler was present.
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#103923 - 09/27/09 01:33 AM Re: Question about USBC rule for bowler starting late. [Re: cgeorg]
Atochabsh Offline
USBC Bronze Coach

Registered: 02/13/01
Posts: 6567
A/S/L: 50/F/California
This happened to us on Thurs night. One of our bowlers was late and the opponents had just completed their third frame. They were quick to put in our teammember's absent score. Doesn't matter to me though. I know that a teammate that is rush and frazzeled by whatever caused him/her to be late is probably not going to be on their game and therefore the team is better off taking a absent score, even if it is 10 pins less. In our case our bowler bowled game 2 and 3 and did terrible both games. Never got into any rhythm. That's just the chance you take when a bowler comes in late and already under pressure.

Erin

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#103924 - 09/27/09 04:13 AM Re: Question about USBC rule for bowler starting late. [Re: Atochabsh]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9820
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
109c. Tardy Players
Unless otherwise provided by league rule, a player who arrives late may be permitted to bowl after a game has started under these conditions:
1. The player shall begin play, with the score to count, beginning with the frame then being bowled by the team.
2. The player shall receive one-tenth of the absentee score for each frame not bowled.
3. Partial games shall not be used in determining a bowler’s average, unless league rules require the secretary to maintain averages based on the actual frames bowled by each player.

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#103926 - 09/27/09 06:59 AM Re: Question about USBC rule for bowler starting late. [Re: Dennis Michael]
Leopard11 Offline
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Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 148
A/S/L: 35/M/MD/USA
Originally Posted By: Dennis Michael
109c. Tardy Players
Unless otherwise provided by league rule, a player who arrives late may be permitted to bowl after a game has started under these conditions:
1. The player shall begin play, with the score to count, beginning with the frame then being bowled by the team.
2. The player shall receive one-tenth of the absentee score for each frame not bowled.
3. Partial games shall not be used in determining a bowler’s average, unless league rules require the secretary to maintain averages based on the actual frames bowled by each player.

So I should request a print out from last night and protest being that the person should not have been allowed to bowl frames 1 through 4 as the person was not present. Score should be adjust to condition 2 for frames 1-4 take and recalculate the persons score with frame 5 through 10(what they bowled in those frames). Unless our league specifies a different rule.
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#103927 - 09/27/09 08:02 AM Re: Question about USBC rule for bowler starting late. [Re: Leopard11]
General Pounder Offline
3x Virtual League Champion

Registered: 03/28/06
Posts: 3398
A/S/L: 40/M/Midlothian, IL
In my league, it is in the league rules that they have until the end of the 5th frame.
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#103928 - 09/27/09 08:02 AM Re: Question about USBC rule for bowler starting late. [Re: Leopard11]
Calvin Pistorio Offline
State Champion Contender

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 6283
A/S/L: 32/m/maryland
Originally Posted By: Leopard11
So I should request a print out from last night and protest being that the person should not have been allowed to bowl frames 1 through 4 as the person was not present. Score should be adjust to condition 2 for frames 1-4 take and recalculate the persons score with frame 5 through 10(what they bowled in those frames). Unless our league specifies a different rule.


Not necessarily. It's league rules as well as any league precedent that dictates what happens.

Your league rules should dictate what frame the bowler has to be there in order to be able to bowl that game. Then it's a matter of if the league has previously allowed late bowlers to make up the frames already bowled. If they have then they have to continue to do so unless they change the rule which after the season starts requires 100% written consent.

For example, my league allows a late bowler to still be eligible to bowl that game as long as that bowler is there before the opposing team has finished bowling the third frame. They have allowed those bowlers to make up the first two frames in the past and it is still allowed.

It just happened to us last night, on both teams. One of our bowlers was running a little late, he made it before we finished our first frame but we thought he was going to be much later. The other team had a guy running just a little later, we had just begin the second frame.
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#103931 - 09/27/09 09:34 AM Re: Question about USBC rule for bowler starting late. [Re: Calvin Pistorio]
Dennis Michael Offline
Virtual League Champion

Registered: 12/11/05
Posts: 9820
A/S/L: M/Barrington, Ill
I have bowled in quite a few different leagues since I returned to the game. And, frankly, most have been just like what General Pounder states. These have a league rule that allows a bowler to catch up if they show up by the fifth frame. Without a league rule that specifies what to do, rule 109c takes place. The 5th frame allowance was an old ABC rule that a lot of leagues carried over because it was familiar.

So, check your league first. Each Captain should have a copy of league rules that specify anything different from USBC rules. At least, the Officers should have a copy, and the league has to file their specific rules with the local USBC.

By the way, the 2009 USBC rule book has been changed in many instances. This is from the 2008 Rule Book which is the only one available on-line. Check the current version to be double sure. The USBC used to issue one per team. Now, it only issues them to the top Officers of the League. They were available when the league started. So, someone in your league has one.
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#103948 - 09/27/09 01:07 PM Re: Question about USBC rule for bowler starting late. [Re: Dennis Michael]
Dick Offline
High Roller

Registered: 02/12/01
Posts: 311
A/S/L: Quarryville, Pa
This is the entire rule. Requires some interpretation but makes a few important distinctions between legal line-up and tardy bowler.

109a/3 When a league allows for individual prebowls, do the scores count toward the legal lineup requirement?

Yes the scores count towards the legal lineup requirement unless the league rules require a legal lineup present at the regular league session.

109b. Lack of Legal Lineup

When one or both teams scheduled against each other fail to present a minimum legal lineup and a postponement was not requested, the game(s) is (are) forfeited unless an emergency existed. The postponement committee or board of directors shall decide whether an emergency existed and, if so, the match shall be rescheduled under the postponement rules. Decisions made by the postponement committee can be appealed to the league’s board of directors.

109c. Tardy Players
Unless otherwise provided by league rule, a player who arrives late may be permitted to bowl after a game has started under these conditions:

1. The player shall begin play, with the score to count, beginning with the frame then being bowled by the team.
2. The player shall receive one-tenth of the absentee score for each frame not bowled.
3. Partial games shall not be used in determining a bowler’s average, unless league rules require the secretary to maintain averages based on the actual frames bowled by each player.

109c/1 If a legal lineup is not present by the end of the first frame but a tardy player arrives before the designated tardy player frame, can the late bowler make up missed frames to avoid a team forfeit?

No, a league rule setting a specific frame for tardy players is separate from the legal lineup rule. First, a team must have enough eligible players present for a legal lineup. Tardy players
could enter the game if they arrived before completion of the designated tardy frame, but the game would still be forfeited.
However, games two and three would not be forfeited since the team would have a legal
lineup present.


Edited by Dick (09/27/09 01:09 PM)
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